HelloWorld2007
09-18 02:28 PM
Have any of your packages been received by 'M Hindera'. Never seen this name come across in this board. Mine was received by this guy on 20th July at NSC, 140 approved at NSC, no receipts. Pls let me know..
thanks
thanks
wallpaper It is just a great home close
willwin
07-28 01:09 PM
What exactly is the point of this rambling debate? Does anybody really thinks he/she can make an EB2 see the point of view of EB3 or vice-a-versa? No amount of legal/moral/philosophical arguments is going to convince the other party and we all know it.
All this debate has done is to bring out the ugliest side of all of us to the surface. There are EB2s claiming every EB2 is by definition superior than EB3 which is insane. And there is an EB3 who is itching to take help of none other than Ron Hira to shot down somebody's GC application as a retribution and couple of people applauding him for the brilliant idea! Really? Do we really thinks this is such a grand idea?
Just accept that everyone's only guiding principle here is self interest and move along. No need to jump through hoops to interpret the immigration law in 101 different ways and no need to call attention to personal suffering and plight. If we do really believe personal suffering should take precedence over everything else on humanitarian grounds then lets all first fight for illegal immigrants since their suffering is much worse than anyone here!
EB3s, go run your campaign and stop trying to appeal to EB2's sense of justice. That will never happen.
EB2s, stop trying to expect EB3s will accept higher EB preference categories should in fact get preference over the lower ones. That will never happen.
The only thing we all can hopefully agree on is, if there is anyone here - doesn't matter EB2 or EB3- who is fiercely debating this but has never contributed to IV and has never participated in any of the previous IV action items in the past that person should just shut up! If you were never active in IV you shouldn't really be talking at this point!!
Is that a new division? Active IVians and inactive IVians? LOL
BTW, sorry to say that the active IVians are minority here.
All this debate has done is to bring out the ugliest side of all of us to the surface. There are EB2s claiming every EB2 is by definition superior than EB3 which is insane. And there is an EB3 who is itching to take help of none other than Ron Hira to shot down somebody's GC application as a retribution and couple of people applauding him for the brilliant idea! Really? Do we really thinks this is such a grand idea?
Just accept that everyone's only guiding principle here is self interest and move along. No need to jump through hoops to interpret the immigration law in 101 different ways and no need to call attention to personal suffering and plight. If we do really believe personal suffering should take precedence over everything else on humanitarian grounds then lets all first fight for illegal immigrants since their suffering is much worse than anyone here!
EB3s, go run your campaign and stop trying to appeal to EB2's sense of justice. That will never happen.
EB2s, stop trying to expect EB3s will accept higher EB preference categories should in fact get preference over the lower ones. That will never happen.
The only thing we all can hopefully agree on is, if there is anyone here - doesn't matter EB2 or EB3- who is fiercely debating this but has never contributed to IV and has never participated in any of the previous IV action items in the past that person should just shut up! If you were never active in IV you shouldn't really be talking at this point!!
Is that a new division? Active IVians and inactive IVians? LOL
BTW, sorry to say that the active IVians are minority here.
gk_2000
07-20 04:45 PM
Sanhari,
If GCs were sold in stores I would buy you and your family a bunch of them.
You are in the EB3 category, do you ever wonder why somebody who is more educated than you or me, makes more money? Can we say, hey you I was born in 1890 I should make more money, it does not fly, EB3 is not a reflection on your skills but more the job you hold.
The question you should ask is why have EB1, 2, 3, etc?
Why do you not include the family based categories, isn't family first, why not the EB spill over to to FB first then whatever trickles down comes to EB, is not this fair? I am sure there are a lot in the FB queue who have waited for longer than you. Now dont tell you you are better than FB because you are highly skilled, pay taxes, etc.
You signed up for this knowing what was in store.
You think writing a letter or starting up a thread is going to help?
I just wonder, is IV some kind of therapy? something like weightwatchers,
maybe we should call ourselves GCWatchers, for frustrated GC folks from India.
Tell me this, are your bosses fools to sponsor you in EB3, do they not know it will take years? No they are not, ask yourself why?
India is shining, not a bad proposition at all.
Mr. Paraya Desi
I request you to mind your language. What you say displays a complete lack of understanding about the system
It is not that they want the "most qualified" or "most brilliant" FIRST, and the rest later. As an example, if your toilet broke down and you have an urgent need to use it, would you welcome a beautiful girl knocking on your door, or a plumber. It is like this. It is a question of WHAT the COUNTRY needs, not who is made of gold
Therefore dont think you are as an EB2 more (or less) entitled to anything, and correct the "faltu" ideas in your brain
If GCs were sold in stores I would buy you and your family a bunch of them.
You are in the EB3 category, do you ever wonder why somebody who is more educated than you or me, makes more money? Can we say, hey you I was born in 1890 I should make more money, it does not fly, EB3 is not a reflection on your skills but more the job you hold.
The question you should ask is why have EB1, 2, 3, etc?
Why do you not include the family based categories, isn't family first, why not the EB spill over to to FB first then whatever trickles down comes to EB, is not this fair? I am sure there are a lot in the FB queue who have waited for longer than you. Now dont tell you you are better than FB because you are highly skilled, pay taxes, etc.
You signed up for this knowing what was in store.
You think writing a letter or starting up a thread is going to help?
I just wonder, is IV some kind of therapy? something like weightwatchers,
maybe we should call ourselves GCWatchers, for frustrated GC folks from India.
Tell me this, are your bosses fools to sponsor you in EB3, do they not know it will take years? No they are not, ask yourself why?
India is shining, not a bad proposition at all.
Mr. Paraya Desi
I request you to mind your language. What you say displays a complete lack of understanding about the system
It is not that they want the "most qualified" or "most brilliant" FIRST, and the rest later. As an example, if your toilet broke down and you have an urgent need to use it, would you welcome a beautiful girl knocking on your door, or a plumber. It is like this. It is a question of WHAT the COUNTRY needs, not who is made of gold
Therefore dont think you are as an EB2 more (or less) entitled to anything, and correct the "faltu" ideas in your brain
2011 REAL ESTATE FLYERS
dixie
06-24 04:47 PM
I say.. focus our efforts on us for the time being.. differentiate ourselves from the undocumented..
Its not as if we havent been trying all this time. Look what we are up against : we have neither the numbers of the illegals nor the lobbying power of the entire agriculture industry (not to speak of the church) behind us. The story of a law-abiding,tax-paying resident trying to remain here just does not make for a glamorous cause for either the media or the politicians. Whatever little attention the media gives us is gobbled up by either the H1-B visa increase lobbyists or someone complaining about not being able to re-unite with his wife/brother etc etc in the US !! And to top it all, the anti-immigrationalists will go out of their way to see us clubbed together with the illegals; even as they shed crocodile tears for legal immigrants affected by amnesty.
In short, none of the "movers and shakers" have a vested interest in us.Thats the hard truth.
Its not as if we havent been trying all this time. Look what we are up against : we have neither the numbers of the illegals nor the lobbying power of the entire agriculture industry (not to speak of the church) behind us. The story of a law-abiding,tax-paying resident trying to remain here just does not make for a glamorous cause for either the media or the politicians. Whatever little attention the media gives us is gobbled up by either the H1-B visa increase lobbyists or someone complaining about not being able to re-unite with his wife/brother etc etc in the US !! And to top it all, the anti-immigrationalists will go out of their way to see us clubbed together with the illegals; even as they shed crocodile tears for legal immigrants affected by amnesty.
In short, none of the "movers and shakers" have a vested interest in us.Thats the hard truth.
more...
sankap
07-10 02:00 PM
@supreet:
Desi/Sankap,
I am not planning to open a company for this. If possible, I would rather work as an independent contractor on 1099.
Please read IRS links I posted above re independent contractor vs. worker. Since you'll be filing your taxes as an independent contractor/sole proprietor on 1099, you'll be considered "self-employed." AC21 allows self-employment. You may not be formally opening a company, but you'll be self-employed.
Now, after reading the last few posts, it looks like there are three things I need to worry about in case of a RFE -
1. Job should be bona fide (without going into the definition of the word).
My project is going to be with a large Bank through a big, wellknown consulting/outsourcing company. That should take care of the 'bonafide' part.
All self-employment is legitimate--so no need to worry. Another option is o get the EVL from the staffing company in case of RFE. Your subcontract with the bank is immaterial.
2. Should have similar/same job duties/responsibilities.
I am still waiting for the contract, however I can have my job duties/responsibilities listed out in my contract with the company. I am sure I can get a letter from the client too if it comes to that.
Your self-employment under AC21 has to be same or similar job. If the contracting co can give you an EVL (in case of an RFE), good enough. If not, you can create one for your self-employed "Sole Proprietorship." I wouldn't bother the staffing company*now* for an EVL.
3. Job should be permanent - This is something I may not be able to prove. Since the project is short term, I am sure my contract will mention that. I am trying to convince the company to at least include "contract-to-hire" in the language of the contract. Since this project has potential of becoming long term, company is not averse to this idea.
Will having 'contract-to-hire' in the contract take care of this question (if a RFE comes).
All self-employment is "permanent." The staffing co may be able to write that on EVL. I wouldn't talk with the staffing co about that now: worry about that only in case of an RFE.
Thanks!!
- S
Desi/Sankap,
I am not planning to open a company for this. If possible, I would rather work as an independent contractor on 1099.
Please read IRS links I posted above re independent contractor vs. worker. Since you'll be filing your taxes as an independent contractor/sole proprietor on 1099, you'll be considered "self-employed." AC21 allows self-employment. You may not be formally opening a company, but you'll be self-employed.
Now, after reading the last few posts, it looks like there are three things I need to worry about in case of a RFE -
1. Job should be bona fide (without going into the definition of the word).
My project is going to be with a large Bank through a big, wellknown consulting/outsourcing company. That should take care of the 'bonafide' part.
All self-employment is legitimate--so no need to worry. Another option is o get the EVL from the staffing company in case of RFE. Your subcontract with the bank is immaterial.
2. Should have similar/same job duties/responsibilities.
I am still waiting for the contract, however I can have my job duties/responsibilities listed out in my contract with the company. I am sure I can get a letter from the client too if it comes to that.
Your self-employment under AC21 has to be same or similar job. If the contracting co can give you an EVL (in case of an RFE), good enough. If not, you can create one for your self-employed "Sole Proprietorship." I wouldn't bother the staffing company*now* for an EVL.
3. Job should be permanent - This is something I may not be able to prove. Since the project is short term, I am sure my contract will mention that. I am trying to convince the company to at least include "contract-to-hire" in the language of the contract. Since this project has potential of becoming long term, company is not averse to this idea.
Will having 'contract-to-hire' in the contract take care of this question (if a RFE comes).
All self-employment is "permanent." The staffing co may be able to write that on EVL. I wouldn't talk with the staffing co about that now: worry about that only in case of an RFE.
Thanks!!
- S
snathan
02-09 09:24 PM
Any one else....today?
more...
sku
11-21 03:31 PM
Take a second opinion,
I had similar situation with my close friend here.
I was with him when he underwent the surgery, Once Doctor came out of surgury he told me (as I was the only one there and his family was in India) that my friend just had 6 months to live, But later found out that was treatable through chemo and radiation..This was almost 4 years ago, My friend is totally recovered and he got the GC year back and he is working in Mid-west.
So don't lose hope in GOD.
I had similar situation with my close friend here.
I was with him when he underwent the surgery, Once Doctor came out of surgury he told me (as I was the only one there and his family was in India) that my friend just had 6 months to live, But later found out that was treatable through chemo and radiation..This was almost 4 years ago, My friend is totally recovered and he got the GC year back and he is working in Mid-west.
So don't lose hope in GOD.
2010 the time, and it is great to
yetanotherguyinline
11-17 05:55 PM
Done, good luck.
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nuke
10-23 02:41 PM
FYI Lame duck session is going to start on Nov 9th.
hair Templates flyers real estate
jobycjoseph
07-20 07:42 AM
Pledging $100
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Lasantha
02-05 12:01 PM
OK, I found this google groups post I did soon after completing my landing. This describes in detail my landing experience. Hope this helps.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.immigration.canada/browse_thread/thread/a6c189aee5c03666/c8d7e48833f61b6a?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=lasanthar#c8d7e48833f61b6a
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.immigration.canada/browse_thread/thread/a6c189aee5c03666/c8d7e48833f61b6a?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=lasanthar#c8d7e48833f61b6a
hot This is a great way to give
boreal
12-10 12:52 PM
Guys,
There are many more trailer-park, red-neck, f*** heads like proud american out there. We really really have to very discreet both at work and other places when we talk about various strategies, like webfax campaign, phone campaign etc.
I was going through the discussion forums of the oppt side too this week and one of the s***heads aparently overheard one of IV members asking ppl to start making phone calls to various senators/congressmen. Then he went throwing on on a barrage of insults at all Indians (i dont know why they want to single out Indians only) calling us pests and all sorts of name-calling. Then he went on to say that the good news is that these 'pests' are planning to go back to their home-lands if they dont get the 'green' soon. So he was asking everyone else to call the senators and oppose the bill. And then the ultimate thing - he says that they "have a lot of legitimate ways to make our lives miserable" in the US...Do i hear KKK there??
This is what happens when we are not discreet at work place. They claim that we are using our work hours to do personal stuff. And he felt obliged to do the same too. Obviously nobody cribs when all of us hard-workers work overtime to get things done.
Anyway, please be careful at work places, be friendly with everyone but have this in your mind that there is someone always overhearing in the next cube/office and possibly monitoring the web sites being visited (like the above guy that i mentioned, did i forget to say that he was the IT admin who was monitoring all the sites that the Indians were visiting?).
There are many more trailer-park, red-neck, f*** heads like proud american out there. We really really have to very discreet both at work and other places when we talk about various strategies, like webfax campaign, phone campaign etc.
I was going through the discussion forums of the oppt side too this week and one of the s***heads aparently overheard one of IV members asking ppl to start making phone calls to various senators/congressmen. Then he went throwing on on a barrage of insults at all Indians (i dont know why they want to single out Indians only) calling us pests and all sorts of name-calling. Then he went on to say that the good news is that these 'pests' are planning to go back to their home-lands if they dont get the 'green' soon. So he was asking everyone else to call the senators and oppose the bill. And then the ultimate thing - he says that they "have a lot of legitimate ways to make our lives miserable" in the US...Do i hear KKK there??
This is what happens when we are not discreet at work place. They claim that we are using our work hours to do personal stuff. And he felt obliged to do the same too. Obviously nobody cribs when all of us hard-workers work overtime to get things done.
Anyway, please be careful at work places, be friendly with everyone but have this in your mind that there is someone always overhearing in the next cube/office and possibly monitoring the web sites being visited (like the above guy that i mentioned, did i forget to say that he was the IT admin who was monitoring all the sites that the Indians were visiting?).
more...
house real estate ads. great real
hindu_king
03-06 05:11 PM
Section 202 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) states that the per-country limit for preference immigrants is set at 7% of the total annual employment-based preference limits. This means a country with large population like India and a tiny country like Lichtenstein get same number of visa numbers. This system is designed to systematically discriminate people from India and China by preventing them from attaining employment visas. More research needs to be done whether this constitutes a violation of US Equal Employment Opportunity Law. We need to find out whether this constitutes discrimination by national origin. Below is is some relevant reading material:
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/national-origin.html#IIA
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/national-origin.html#IIA
tattoo Green Real Estate with
vshar
07-22 09:44 PM
I feel for the guys who have been waiting since 2001 for their green cards in the EB3-I/C category.
To change the interpretation of how spillover is applied, you will need a better argument than "The system isn't fair."
Why should the USCIS/DOS favor EB3 over EB1 or EB2? Unless you provide a reason that benefits America, no executive or law maker is going to touch this. You can see why this is a tough argument to make - The USCIS sees EB1 as better educated and more accomplished on average than EB2 and the same for EB2 over EB3. Are there exceptions to the rule? Ofcourse there are. But the law is designed to solve the most common scenario and not complicated situations like this.
EB3 to EB2 isn't a slam dunk as many of you have correctly pointed out. One option is to move employers and find the right employer who is ready to file for EB2. While that may not work for everyone, it is the only known way out of the EB3 nightmare.
I support measures that will alleviate your pain although this will likely not benefit my personal situation. Visa recapture is a real possibility at the end of this year - I recommend you support IV to accomplish this goal.
You are not man but superman.
To change the interpretation of how spillover is applied, you will need a better argument than "The system isn't fair."
Why should the USCIS/DOS favor EB3 over EB1 or EB2? Unless you provide a reason that benefits America, no executive or law maker is going to touch this. You can see why this is a tough argument to make - The USCIS sees EB1 as better educated and more accomplished on average than EB2 and the same for EB2 over EB3. Are there exceptions to the rule? Ofcourse there are. But the law is designed to solve the most common scenario and not complicated situations like this.
EB3 to EB2 isn't a slam dunk as many of you have correctly pointed out. One option is to move employers and find the right employer who is ready to file for EB2. While that may not work for everyone, it is the only known way out of the EB3 nightmare.
I support measures that will alleviate your pain although this will likely not benefit my personal situation. Visa recapture is a real possibility at the end of this year - I recommend you support IV to accomplish this goal.
You are not man but superman.
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pictures heck even most real estate
go_guy123
05-09 10:30 AM
I miss the good old Bush days and hope that McCain would have been the President.
How are you saying this? Under his watch large numbers of green cards were lost.
GOP as well DNC are all chasing the mass votes of illegals and their USC relatives.
How are you saying this? Under his watch large numbers of green cards were lost.
GOP as well DNC are all chasing the mass votes of illegals and their USC relatives.
dresses Greg asked me if the flyers in
rathole
11-19 10:33 AM
Done!
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makeup Great for Valentines Day and
gc_aspirant_prasad
07-11 10:13 AM
This one was the best... Where did this come from??
I think its a conchshell original.
By and far one of the best!
I think its a conchshell original.
By and far one of the best!
girlfriend a-real-estate.JPG
ivjobs
07-12 02:40 PM
New Traps for Aliens Filing for a Green Card (http://www.rreeves.com/articles/immigration_en_10575.php)
does this mean one cannot use wad for primary job?
There was a whole discussion on one of the threads. There was also an IV Core clarification from USCIS dig it in the threads.
does this mean one cannot use wad for primary job?
There was a whole discussion on one of the threads. There was also an IV Core clarification from USCIS dig it in the threads.
hairstyles best real estate flyers.
factoryman
07-02 12:15 AM
with a copy of I-140, you can complete all your paperwork between now and dawn tomorrow.
In the meanwhile, act everything is normal. Ask a employment letter with job title and current salary (say, you want it for trip to Canada or renewing your DL or some 'genunine' reason like that.
Apply.
Hi guys,
With all the news floating around about the VISAs getting exhausted in early July on one side and having an employer who does not seem too eager to apply for I485 since past two months, how does one deal with it ?
I wish all this was a little less complicated..:confused:
In the meanwhile, act everything is normal. Ask a employment letter with job title and current salary (say, you want it for trip to Canada or renewing your DL or some 'genunine' reason like that.
Apply.
Hi guys,
With all the news floating around about the VISAs getting exhausted in early July on one side and having an employer who does not seem too eager to apply for I485 since past two months, how does one deal with it ?
I wish all this was a little less complicated..:confused:
dpp
07-28 07:21 AM
Even if USCIS reverts the decision back to use Vertical spill overs, it won't change the EB3-I PD position a dime. As it didn't change with that way in the past. So, there is no use in asking USCIS to change it back to Vertical from Horizontal spill over.
As somebody mentioned earlier, they were all taken by EB3 other workers all these years, it is better to ask USCIS to give preference to EB3-I and EB3-C before giving it to EB3 Other works so that they can get better share to complement for the lost happened all these years. I can understand the EB3-I frustration. We need to analyze who got the major share all these years and ask USCIS to give them to others lost in retrogression (EB3-I, EB3-C, EB2-I, EB2-C).
Otherwise, only way to get a common ground is, recapture and dependent exception bills. We should all work for these two common bills.
It may not directly harm visa recapture or any other official IV campaigns - at least for now! But don't you think if EB3-I campaign to revert to the old way of handling the overflow succeeds at all their will be an immediate follow up, counter campaign to re-revert the decision by EB2s? I don't see an end to this fight and I don't see any winners in the long term.
Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't run your campaign. You have every right to do so. But please accept this for what it is. It will cause a split in IV members and that can not be avoided.
As somebody mentioned earlier, they were all taken by EB3 other workers all these years, it is better to ask USCIS to give preference to EB3-I and EB3-C before giving it to EB3 Other works so that they can get better share to complement for the lost happened all these years. I can understand the EB3-I frustration. We need to analyze who got the major share all these years and ask USCIS to give them to others lost in retrogression (EB3-I, EB3-C, EB2-I, EB2-C).
Otherwise, only way to get a common ground is, recapture and dependent exception bills. We should all work for these two common bills.
It may not directly harm visa recapture or any other official IV campaigns - at least for now! But don't you think if EB3-I campaign to revert to the old way of handling the overflow succeeds at all their will be an immediate follow up, counter campaign to re-revert the decision by EB2s? I don't see an end to this fight and I don't see any winners in the long term.
Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't run your campaign. You have every right to do so. But please accept this for what it is. It will cause a split in IV members and that can not be avoided.
chanduv23
07-08 03:04 PM
The exchange between Chanduv and Desi3933 has been a refreshingly objective discussion and is a welcome change from the typical hyper-reactionary posts one sees more frequently in this forum.
One of the features of the fight for EB immigration reforms we all need to be cognizant of is - that most (99%) of the members are in this fight to solve an immediate personal problem (visa situation) in a timely manner - most of us are not in it because we believe it to be a cause larger than us and a cause that demands personal sacrifice - and hence the lack of collective passion (lukewarm responses to IV sponsored drives, donation efforts etc.)
While - many have tried to compare this cause to India's independence struggle or Gandhiji's movement in South Africa - but the fundamental difference is that in both these struggles - people who led the struggles led it at a personal cost (Gandhiji willingly gave away a lucrative career to take up the struggle and so did Nehru; Netaji Bose was a Civil Services Officer and gave it up) - even the vast majority of revolutionaries (Bhagat Singh et al) were college educated professionals who could easily have had nice careers in British India.........and therein lies the fundamental difference......not one of us would willingly give up what we have for this struggle - we are in it because we are stuck in a system and want some resolution.......as soon as our particular situation gets resolved...we move on....(maybe there are a few exceptions and hats off to these folks).........and hence Desi - the answer to your question why H1 does not care for F1 and EAD does not care for H1 and so on.......it is not a collective cause - it is just a collection of individual causes - thats all - we would be fooling ourselves if we had some other grandiose visions - calling this group a cause would be the same as calling passengers on a bus one group - they are in the same bus simply because they share a part of their journey - thats it
Well said. healthy discussions help introspect ourselves. In day to day life we seldom see people trying to be wise and good. At workplaces, there is no healthy discussion - all people do is to watch out their backs and talk accordingly - which leads to false perspectives. These days when we give a good advice to friends or someone they may not percieve it in a good way with a "stop preaching me - go help yourself" attitude.
One of the features of the fight for EB immigration reforms we all need to be cognizant of is - that most (99%) of the members are in this fight to solve an immediate personal problem (visa situation) in a timely manner - most of us are not in it because we believe it to be a cause larger than us and a cause that demands personal sacrifice - and hence the lack of collective passion (lukewarm responses to IV sponsored drives, donation efforts etc.)
While - many have tried to compare this cause to India's independence struggle or Gandhiji's movement in South Africa - but the fundamental difference is that in both these struggles - people who led the struggles led it at a personal cost (Gandhiji willingly gave away a lucrative career to take up the struggle and so did Nehru; Netaji Bose was a Civil Services Officer and gave it up) - even the vast majority of revolutionaries (Bhagat Singh et al) were college educated professionals who could easily have had nice careers in British India.........and therein lies the fundamental difference......not one of us would willingly give up what we have for this struggle - we are in it because we are stuck in a system and want some resolution.......as soon as our particular situation gets resolved...we move on....(maybe there are a few exceptions and hats off to these folks).........and hence Desi - the answer to your question why H1 does not care for F1 and EAD does not care for H1 and so on.......it is not a collective cause - it is just a collection of individual causes - thats all - we would be fooling ourselves if we had some other grandiose visions - calling this group a cause would be the same as calling passengers on a bus one group - they are in the same bus simply because they share a part of their journey - thats it
Well said. healthy discussions help introspect ourselves. In day to day life we seldom see people trying to be wise and good. At workplaces, there is no healthy discussion - all people do is to watch out their backs and talk accordingly - which leads to false perspectives. These days when we give a good advice to friends or someone they may not percieve it in a good way with a "stop preaching me - go help yourself" attitude.
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